Re: Sequences, Lists, and Relational Constraint Expressions

["Roy Mendelssohn" <Roy.Mendelssohn@xxxxxxxx>]

I think to be useful you must be able to constrain more than 
lat-lon-depth-time.  You should be able to constrain things like 
"station", "line", and some other properties of the variables.  I 
understand that allowing constraints on everything can be difficult. 
If there were a series of well-formed conventions, than some limit 
could be agreed to based on the structure of the convention.

Certainly formalizing the DAPPER convention, and also  firming up and 
comparing the conventions John Caron has recommended woul dbe a good 
start.

-Roy


At 2:45 PM -0600 5/5/06, John Caron wrote:
> Steve Hankin wrote:
> > Hi John,
> >
> > This dilemma is the result of a mismatch between the "discipline 
> > neutral" generality of the OPeNDAP DAP and the relatively focussed 
> > data models that Unidata is working with.  The obvious way to 
> > address this is through conventions -- just as the CF conventions 
> > are already needed in order to map the generality of netCDF onto 
> > the Common Data Model.
> >
> > It seems to me that the DAPPER conventions, if fleshed out, could 
> > address the problem that you pose.  Fully fleshed out DAPPER 
> > conventions would clarify the process for identifying the 
> > independent (coordinate) variables, georeferencing, the requirement 
> > (or not) for a 2-level Sequence, the scope of structures that would 
> > be permitted inside the sequences, the adoption (or not) of CF 
> > standard names, etc.   Through the conventions one could also 
> > impose restrictions (or convey information to clients) on the types 
> > of relational operations that are allowed and/or the variables to 
> > which they can be applied.
>
> Hmmm, I dont think you could use conventions to alter the semantics 
> of the data access protocol. That is, operations will still be 
> allowed, but they may fail because they exceed resource limits.
>
> The problem is we want to model our data with variable length 
> arrays, and right now we only have Sequences to do that, which 
> require supporting RCE on all fields. We could move to supporting a 
> List data type, but that has no RCE on any fields. I want to support 
> RCE on some fields of a variable length array, because I can only do 
> that efficiently on some of the fields. (This is true even with an 
> RDB, namely the fields that you have indexed).
>
> More abstractly, this is an example where I (ideally) want to 
> express what opendap calls are practical. The client should be able 
> to exmine the DDS and decide how to best get the info it wants. 
> Because of the generality of opendap (i assume following relational 
> theory) i cant do that.
>
> So you are suggesting that instead of indicating "what is practical" 
> in the DDS, we should do it at some layer above that, eg the "Dapper 
> convention layer". Thats probably what we have to do if we cant do 
> it in the DDS. I wanted to see if anyone else had other ideas before 
> we follow that path, though.
>
> >    - steve
> >
> > ==================================================
> >
> > John Caron wrote:
> >
> > > Hi James, et al:
> > >
> > > One problem I have in implementing opendap sequences is that you 
> > > have to support relational constraint expressions (RCE) on all of 
> > > the fields of a sequence. This only scales if you use a DBMS. I 
> > > would prefer to support RCE on some of the fields, eg the space 
> > > and time coordinates and station ids.
> > > Im wondering if anyone has this problem, and if there is anything 
> > > to do about it?


--
**********************
"The contents of this message do not reflect any position of the 
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**********************
Roy Mendelssohn
Supervisory Operations Research Analyst
NOAA/NMFS
Environmental Research Division
Southwest Fisheries Science Center
1352 Lighthouse Avenue
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